Conversation #4 Final Thoughts....or not?

After the first three blog posts, I had some very interesting interactions on Facebook in response to the sharing of the Conversation #1.  Some gave their experience of how CC has changed their lives, homeschooling technique, or enhanced what they do at home.  Friends wrote comments (which were then deleted or changed) or sent me private messages.  Most of the public remarks on Facebook were not in my favor.  Most of the private messages were in my favor.  The ‘behind the scene’ type encouragement, as well as knowing people do appreciate me revealing of the “negatives” to this tool – CC, prods me to continue researching, asking questions, and mainly listening to moms.  I only had one lady actually call me to personally ask where I was coming from posting this information, why was I doing this, and explain to me the positives of CC from her point of view.  She also led me to the reality of the tuition distribution.  After I explained a bit of information to her, I think we both enjoyed our conversation. I was thankful to talk with her and have a great deal of respect for this beautiful person. 

Contrarily, another mom made it clear she did not want to be in the same room with me….  I was afraid she was going to spit on me if I came any closer.  She later apologized.  I have a unique perspective since I’ve spoken out against the concept of CC; many have come to me and/or been glad to answer questions that normally would not have gotten mentioned.  These Christian women have enlightened me to both sides of CC, where in other areas of the nation it is also causing a divide.  I’ve even met with state support group leaders who say we need to band together to encourage or educate our government officials regarding the homeschooling movement; I agree with them.  I also agree that Classical Conversations is a great tool.  I have seen several CC portfolios (even though I’m pretty sure some were requested to find another evaluator) of the CC parents who remain my true friends (even though I’ve expressed an opinion on their curriculum choice or just shown several items to watch for when choosing this tool). I am totally impressed with the portfolios!  However, most of the portfolio samples were not related to CC materials as there is little written with CC in Foundations and Essentials (I do like that), but the curriculum that was otherwise purchased and utilized with the children (math, reading lists, language arts, etc.).  High School portfolios were very impressive.  I could see the rigor in the program, the writing assignments, the reading lists and essays.  It is a tool; it is a curriculum choice.  It is a technique.  It is not the only way to homeschool.

Classical conversations, if done as intended, requires diligence, time and patience for the long run of the child’s education. It requires structure at home, multiple other curricula (math, history, electives and language arts), and much more.  This tool is great for providing a sense of community to homeschoolers who often feel all alone in the journey. If I were not involved in a support group (or 2-3), I may be involved.??? Classical Conversations taps into, and makes use of, the capability of a child to memorize, sing and dance.  There is no doubt the children appear to be smart.  I’ve heard the memory song of history facts.  I’m impressed.  

A criticism that I had heard was I’d never been to an informational meeting regarding CC. So I scheduled myself to attend.  One Support Manager and two directors were representing CC.  

The following was the procedure:

1.      Introduction

2.       History of the company, founder (Leigh Bortins), and quotes which referred to The Lost Tools of Learning by Dorothy Sayers

3.       An overview of the program

4.       How CC has worked for the 2 Directors, Support Manager and other families -- testimonials.

5.       Reasons for taking positions: the current Support Manager initially took the Local Director role and recently took a promotion

6.       Additional Testimonials from these individuals as moms and what changes they’ve experienced in their children, what their children have memorized, know and can do.  Testimonials on the benefits of public speaking, geography excellence (to prepare for debating on world events in high school), giving reports, and improved writing skills

7.       She gave us a catalog and a “Program Tuition and Fees Information 2014-2015” sheet

8.       A look at the CC catalog (p. 75) to show a mom of middle schoolers the high school transcript she could look forward to seeing if she chose to do CC. 

9.       Breakdown of the tuition costs of the program for each age, facility fee, registration fee, & supply fee.

At this point I had to leave as it had been over an hour, and I had a secondary obligation to attend.  

Here’s a parallel that I began making mentally the night of the info meeting.

CC	Home Cooking Party*	Makeup Madness* MLM
Hosted at a business place	Hosted at a home	Hosted at a home
Discussed Founder & Dorothy Sayers “Lost Tools of Learning”	Talk about the company and founder’s beginnings	Discuss who the founder is, how she began her business
Mention the Set-up of the program	Go over several products and do a demonstration	Sample makeup or do a complete makeover
Give testimony from several perspectives	Give testimony of the products and what you love the best	Give testimony of products and how they are beneficial
Breakdown of costs for tuition	Breakdown of sales, start-up costs if interested	Breakdown of specials and then start-up costs
End with questions	Answer any questions	Ask “What was your favorite product?”
Follow up	Follow up with bringing products ordered	Follow up with emails, products ordered
Directors / Tutor Training (3 days)	Online Training	1 day training event 30 days from startup
Parent Practicum – Learning from other tutors (how CC fixes our schooling problems???)	Conference where new products are revealed.	Convention with prizes and rewards
Marketing via:  networking, printed catalog, website, mom-to-mom, videos 'shared' via YouTube on ALL social media sites	Marketing via:  social media, word-of-mouth, YouTube video, email lists of sales, replicated website	Marketing via:  social media, word-of-mouth, email lists of monthly promotions, replicated website.

*these are false companies and are only used to clarify a parallel to other companies.

Upon further research since the information meeting, I have run into some reviews which are from actual people who have participated.  Here are some quotes:

Classical Conversations Review by Melissa

June 28, 2014

Pros: Fun way to learn the classical model of education while enjoying a community of fellow homeschoolers.
Cons: Expensive, incomplete, disagree with some of the philosophies, tutors are not well trained, requires parent to basically write their own curriculum to use at home in order to line up

Grades Used: Over the course of 3 years: 4K, K, 1st/3rd, 4th, 5th

The first year we did CC, I was a tutor and we were part of a wonderful community. We all loved it and it was truly a blessing to our homeschool. However, had I not been a tutor, there is no way I could have afforded the tuition. As a tutor, I received “training” on how to teach according to the classical model. This training was not what I expected and I left the three day meeting feeling less confident than before. The first two days were spent explaining what we could and couldn’t do. For instance, we were absolutely not allowed to deviate from the 30 “crisp” minutes scheduled for each subject. This didn’t seem like a big deal, except that many weeks the assigned science project literally took 10 minutes to complete, while we were left rushing through art projects in order to fulfill the requirement. The last day of training, they finally gave instruction in what the tutors actually do. This was done by breaking us into groups and having us present parts of the memory work. It was very helpful to learn from some of the former tutors, but the majority of the tutors were in their first year, so we had no clue what we were supposed to do. Had it not been for my fellow tutors at my campus, I would not have understood my job requirements at all.

Also in the training, we were constantly reminded that we are to teach the parents, not the students, and that our job is to show the parents how to teach according to the classical model. I found this condescending and in total opposition to my belief that the parent is the best teacher for their child-the reason why many choose to homeschool. When I asked why CC feels this way, I was told that “this is Leigh’s program and you cannot change anything about it”. The trainer drew a pyramid on the board and wrote: Jesus, Leigh, Directors, Tutors, Parents, Children. She told us that this is the order of command with CC and we were to respect it. I’m sorry, but something about seeing Leigh Bortins listed right under Jesus Christ made me nauseous. Also, I think the order should have listed the parents under Jesus and so forth.

The second year we did CC, we had moved to a new area that did not have a campus, so I used the curriculum and did everything myself at home. We had a great year, learned SO MUCH more than the previous year, and I didn’t have to pay almost $500 per child. The drawbacks were that my kids loved getting together with friends each week, so they really missed having a campus and that I felt I had to organize our science and history to match up with CC. This was impossible because CC is more of an outline of main topics instead of a complete curriculum. One week on the Civil War did not give me enough time to cover what I felt my oldest child needed to learn that year.

This year, we joined a classical co-op which is similar to CC, but the only cost is for supplies. The tutors are parent volunteers. I have found this to be the best of both worlds.

I really think that CC is a great program, but I strongly disagree with some of their philosophies and I think the cost is impossible for many families to afford.

- See more at: http://www.thehomeschoolmom.com/homeschool-curriculum-reviews/classical-conversations/#sthash.lYKEebVm.dpuf

I put this one first because it is the most disturbing to me.  Especially the triangle / pyramid she describes in the following manner:

Jesus             

Leigh

Directors

Tutors

Parents

Children

Further links:

Blog post 1 from someone who did CC

Another idea?

From a teacher's perspective

Memorization Program

After my Conversation # 1, (@ the very beginning of my research) the posts that were somewhat insinuating that I was ignorant because I had not been to an official ‘information meeting’ or an ‘open house’ came this private conversation from Tiny (her name was changed as she did not want to be recognized and for good reason!)·        

Tiny Toxter

Omgoodness! Now I'm scared to pitch my two cents in after reading that last woman's comments, haha. Just fyi, I think you were very diplomatic in your approach to the topic

·        

5:18pm

Kristen Adkins

OK; that makes me feel good. I've gotten several good emails and messages privately. BUT to be honest, I'm not getting much public support. I actually said that I'm not going to post any more on that link. UUUGGG.. Don't b sorry! I understand not wanting to get into all this.

5:20pm

Tiny Toxter

I think its because people who do support you don't know enough about CC to get into a debate. At least that's my thought. Yikes!

You ok?

·        

5:23pm

Kristen Adkins

YES, Thank you for asking..... This is frustrating! AND you are right. There is not enough education about it to know pros AND cons..... When you go to the meeting it is similar to a sales pitch of sorts. Classical Conversaitons is like a Multi-level Marketing - therefore the more people, the more $$ they make all the way up the ladder. That is OK for purses or makeup, but to take moms who may be insecure and not financially able, and make them feel as though this program will solve their needs..... I'm torn over it.

5:25pm

Tiny Toxter

Ah, you described EXACTLY how I feel!!!!! I feel as if the education I'm giving my kids is suddenly sub-par. I cried all day yesterday and normally I'm uber confident with how my kids are progressing. Talk about pressure!

·        

5:30pm

Kristen Adkins

·         OH, you are doing great! I know. AND our goal is not to have the best SAT or ACT scores but for the LORD to say "Well done thou good and faithful servant..."

·          

5:31pm

Tiny Toxter

EXACTLY! The things I want my kids to learn the most have nothing to do with Latin or algebra

·        

5:35pm

Kristen Adkins

WOULD you care if I anonymously cut and paste your comments here onto a follow up blog.... I won’t use your name, where you are from etc.... I will post exactly as it is written here! If not, that is ok.

5:37pm

Tiny Toxter

Sure! Just as long as it’s anonymous...haha!!!!

5:37pm

Kristen Adkins

Absolutely!

Tiny Toxter

You can also state that I don't think schooling your children requires a lot of $ for curriculum (been there, done that...hated it) and it doesn't have to be so stringent. At least a laidback approach works better for our family anyways

 I’ve heard the following statements / stories from private messages or one-on-one conversations:

“I feel like CC is being shoved down our throats!”

“I can do CC at home if I choose.”

“You can give a classical education at home.”

“On several occasions, I’ve been accosted at (local support group) events to try to get me to join CC; now I avoid going to these events if [CC members] are there.”

“I told her I couldn’t afford it, and she then proceeded to tell me why the benefits would outweigh the cost; I knew there had to be a kickback of some sort.”

“Someone tried to recruit me at a local support group event after hearing me and another mom talking about our curriculum choices.  This mom said she had found the perfect curriculum.  When I told her I couldn’t afford that and my hubby wasn’t ‘on board’ she proceeded to tell me all the reasons the money would be worth it.  That is when I knew it had to be similar to MLM.  It is marketing of some sort.  The other mom signed up for the idea of CC almost immediately.  I watched her be recruited.”

“I’m not sure of what we did this school year; I hope this is enough (she had done an extensive amount of work and had created a very nice portfolio and a nice home education for her child all by herself)…..  I’m joining CC next year to help us stay on track....”

CC uses the same techniques that other companies do to market to homeschool moms.  Here is where I don’t like these methods.  They CAN (and some tutors / directors intentionally do) cast doubt into a successful mom’s mind that her children are missing out on an opportunity, some sort of classical secretive learning, the thought of ‘I’m not doing enough’ or ‘I don’t know what I’m doing’.  Or make a mom feel that “My kids don’t have that much memorized!  I must be doing something wrong.” or “I’m inadequate to homeschool my child; I only have a high school diploma.”  Why would anyone do this to another mom? Why would marketing this way be acceptable? 

The CC info meeting only spoke of the classical conversations ‘home-centered’ method; it never mentioned any other type of homeschool group, support, or style of teaching.  But I can understand that….  That is what they do, and they would not want to persuade you to use Charlotte Mason.  At other local support group events, phone numbers were taken of potential homeschoolers to invite these people to CC info meetings?  This is a little pushy - trying to press your way of schooling onto someone in the researching phase!  

Interestingly enough, My Father’s World (MFW) is starting up groups all over the country with the same weekly idea.  The difference? There is no fee, no registration, no tuition, etc.  My Father’s World has a book for sale that costs $24; the book gives ideas for a weekly get-together and activities or enrichment lessons.  Purchase that book and find like-minded families to join you (that are on the same sequence of MFW as you).  They offer a voluntary registry of groups but have no authority over them and require no payments. 

Another point to make:  Tuition for a Challenge A, B, I, II, III, & IV is $1110 - $1175 + Registration fee of $120 + Lab fee of $50 + a facility fee.  That equals $1345 not including books.  This price is about a third to ½ of a local Christian school tuition (in WV) for the entire year – 5 days a week for 36 weeks – and with minimal parental responsibility to provide teaching.  I know some moms are choosing this route.  I don't blame them - it is their choice....

Here is a story that I heard about CC influencing a family in the formation of cliques.  There was a mom who had homeschooled on her own for several years.  She joined a local CC when it came to her town.  The family had several children who participated.  After a few years of participating in CC, she and her husband felt that the children were becoming cliquish with one another and not having good family unity.  For example, the children would say, “Get out of my room; I’m not playing with you.”  After some prayer and reflection the parents decided it may be the CC program they had joined where children are separated by ages for hours at a time for tutoring.  This mom told the director that she would not be back and the reasons for her leaving.  The director looked at her and said to the affect “You can’t do it on your own”.  The mom said something like, I homeschooled before CC came, and I will be successful after it has gone.  Good for her!

Could CC cause us to form cliques?  At home among siblings?  At our support group activities?  Among established support groups?  At field trips?  Pool days?  Picnics?  What about within CC itself? There are cliques everywhere you go, but for the children’s sake, I hope we don’t clique off into CC and non-CC students.  I hope all moms (and their children) receive fair treatment at parks and local support group events even if they are not in a CC group. 

One week to learn a topic on a three year cycle is another issue I have. For example, when my children want to learn a topic, I may stay on the subject for more than a week or two.  I may stay on the topic a month or a whole school year (like slavery – we went to the library, visited Montecello, saw the slave quarters, heard stories from the Montecello volunteers about Sally Hemmings, read books when we returned home, watched videos on slavery, studied the underground railroad and Harriet Tubman (also watched a movie about her).  We also did internet activities, Bob Jones curriculum activities, Netflix movies on slave traders, like John Newton (Amazing Grace, the movie), and much more.  This is interest-based learning and is very exciting to my children.  I heard of a child who was fascinated with Egypt, so the mother stayed on Egypt for several months.  The cycle of 3 years does not make sense to me when you only get a week on a particular subject.  If you coordinated your science to CC you would get one topic / week?  One factual sentence per week?  Why go over the same composers or artists every three years?  How about study someone off the list for more than one week?

Science experiments and art projects are another question.  The experiments can, for the most part, be done at home.  There is no science lecture in elementary or high school.  The parent is completely responsible for the lecture portion of the science while CC does a lab/week.  Perhaps the community gets excited to do an experiment and art projects with friends each week.  However, it would not be for me – I’m non-artistic!  I would be backward and shy and not want anyone to see my project.  I would rather die than have a class see my drawing.  However, for kids this is not an issue; children like to show off their work.  That is why I often feel showing off the kids work is more like a parlor show.  I’m going to post a presentation every now and then, but it would mostly be for my out-of-town family to view it in other states or friends considering the alternatives to public school.  I don’t do it on a forum page or a support group page for strangers to see and think:  “WOW that program is what I need to do  --  I need to homeschool like her family!"  I'm not bragging or showing a parlor trick here....

In concluding this excruciatingly long post, I want to say that there are great ideas with Classical Conversations.  I am also highly impressed with the father’s involvements with CC (I see on several videos that dads are often tutors or encouraging of CC).  IMHO CC is a tool -a very popular tool (that is why I'm taking a large amount of flack for these posts).  Some are passionate about it!  Others are making the rest of us feel disenchanted or repulsed when we see posts or invitations to events.  When we see certain people who we know are going to want to market to us by telling us we aren't doing enough....  Why would anyone need to have all these info meetings/open houses?  I don’t hold info meetings for A Beka.  (I do not utilize an A Beka program but use this for an example publisher.)

Hypothetically, if I worked for A Beka, and I hosted an info meeting sharing homeschooling as using exclusively A Beka products, homeschoolers of any season in their jouney would call me out on it!  I would be advertising, making my own gain, using this tool as a profit for myself.  If you were at my meeting, would you not like to say to the audience, “There are other options!!!!”  Of course you would!  THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS.  People successfully homeschool with various curricula…. with ACE, with Sonlight, with Alpha Omega, or with public school materials…..

Another final thought:  Don’t try to do a curriculum just like Mrs. Jones is doing.  Let’s not keep up with the Jones of homeschooling.  Let’s relax a bit.  Let’s do what is best for our family.  Please don’t be a  cookie cutter family!  Be “yourself”!  And if CC is “your best self”, then go for it!!! But please, leave me alone about my curriculum choice.  I’m capable of making the choice myself with my husband and my Father.  If I have any questions, I will ask you.  Don’t be pushy to me.  Don’t market to me by casting doubt -- -because I’m a mom like you.