After the first three blog posts, I had some very
interesting interactions on Facebook in response to the sharing of the
Conversation #1. Some gave their
experience of how CC has changed their lives, homeschooling technique, or enhanced
what they do at home. Friends wrote
comments (which were then deleted or changed) or sent me private messages. Most of the public remarks on Facebook were
not in my favor. Most of the private
messages were in my favor. The ‘behind
the scene’ type encouragement, as well as knowing people do appreciate me
revealing of the “negatives” to this tool – CC, prods me to continue
researching, asking questions, and mainly listening to moms. I only had one lady actually call me to personally
ask where I was coming from posting this information, why was I doing this, and
explain to me the positives of CC from her point of view. She also led me to the reality of the tuition
distribution. After I explained a bit of
information to her, I think we both enjoyed our conversation. I was thankful to
talk with her and have a great deal of respect for this beautiful person.
Contrarily, another mom made it clear she did not want to be
in the same room with me…. I was afraid
she was going to spit on me if I came any closer. She later apologized. I have a unique perspective since I’ve spoken
out against the concept of CC; many have come to me and/or been glad to answer
questions that normally would not have gotten mentioned. These Christian women have enlightened me to
both sides of CC, where in other areas of the nation it is also causing a divide. I’ve even met with state support group
leaders who say we need to band together to encourage or educate our government
officials regarding the homeschooling movement; I agree with them. I also agree that Classical Conversations is
a great tool. I have seen several CC
portfolios (even though I’m pretty sure some were requested to find another
evaluator) of the CC parents who remain my true friends (even though I’ve
expressed an opinion on their curriculum choice or just shown several items to
watch for when choosing this tool). I am totally impressed with the
portfolios! However, most of the
portfolio samples were not related to CC materials as there is little written
with CC in Foundations and Essentials (I do like that), but the curriculum that
was otherwise purchased and utilized with the children (math, reading lists,
language arts, etc.). High School
portfolios were very impressive. I could
see the rigor in the program, the writing assignments, the reading lists and
essays. It is a tool; it is a curriculum
choice. It is a technique. It is not the only way to homeschool.
Classical conversations, if done as intended, requires
diligence, time and patience for the long run of the child’s education. It
requires structure at home, multiple other curricula (math, history, electives and language arts), and much more. This
tool is great for providing a sense of community to homeschoolers who often
feel all alone in the journey. If I were not involved in a support group (or
2-3), I may be involved.??? Classical
Conversations taps into, and makes use of, the capability of a child to
memorize, sing and dance. There is no
doubt the children appear to be smart.
I’ve heard the memory song of history facts. I’m impressed.
A criticism that I had heard was I’d never been to an informational meeting regarding CC. So I scheduled myself to attend. One Support Manager and two directors were representing CC.
The following was the procedure:
1. Introduction
2. History of the company, founder (Leigh Bortins),
and quotes which referred to The Lost Tools of Learning by Dorothy Sayers
3. An overview of the program
4.
How CC has worked for the 2 Directors, Support
Manager and other families -- testimonials.
5.
Reasons for taking positions: the current Support Manager initially took
the Local Director role and recently took a promotion
6. Additional Testimonials from these individuals as moms and
what changes they’ve experienced in their children, what their children have
memorized, know and can do. Testimonials
on the benefits of public speaking, geography excellence (to prepare for
debating on world events in high school), giving reports, and improved writing
skills
7.
She gave us a catalog and a “Program Tuition and
Fees Information 2014-2015” sheet
8.
A look at the CC catalog (p. 75) to show a mom
of middle schoolers the high school transcript she could look forward to seeing
if she chose to do CC.
9.
Breakdown of the tuition costs of the program
for each age, facility fee, registration fee, & supply fee.
At this point I had to leave as it had been over an hour,
and I had a secondary obligation to attend.
Here’s a parallel that I began making mentally the night of the info
meeting.
CC
|
Home Cooking Party*
|
Makeup Madness* MLM
|
Hosted at a business place
|
Hosted at a home
|
Hosted at a home
|
Discussed Founder & Dorothy Sayers “Lost Tools of Learning”
|
Talk about the company and founder’s beginnings
|
Discuss who the founder is, how she began her business
|
Mention the Set-up of the program
|
Go over several products and do a demonstration
|
Sample makeup or do a complete makeover
|
Give testimony from several perspectives
|
Give testimony of the products and what you love the best
|
Give testimony of products and how they are beneficial
|
Breakdown of costs for tuition
|
Breakdown of sales, start-up costs if interested
|
Breakdown of specials and then start-up costs
|
End with questions
|
Answer any questions
|
Ask “What was your favorite product?”
|
Follow up
|
Follow up with bringing products ordered
|
Follow up with emails, products ordered
|
Directors / Tutor Training (3 days)
|
Online Training
|
1 day training event 30 days from startup
|
Parent Practicum – Learning from other tutors (how CC fixes our schooling problems???)
|
Conference where new products are revealed.
|
Convention with prizes and rewards
|
Marketing via: networking, printed catalog, website, mom-to-mom, videos 'shared' via YouTube on ALL social media sites
|
Marketing via: social media,
word-of-mouth, YouTube video, email lists of sales, replicated website
|
Marketing via: social media,
word-of-mouth, email lists of monthly promotions, replicated website.
|
*these are false companies and
are only used to clarify a parallel to other companies.
Upon further research since the information meeting, I have
run into some reviews which are from actual people who have participated. Here are some quotes:
Classical Conversations Review by Melissa
June 28, 2014
Pros: Fun way to learn the
classical model of education while enjoying a community of fellow
homeschoolers.
Cons: Expensive, incomplete, disagree with some of the philosophies, tutors are not well trained, requires parent to basically write their own curriculum to use at home in order to line up
Cons: Expensive, incomplete, disagree with some of the philosophies, tutors are not well trained, requires parent to basically write their own curriculum to use at home in order to line up
Grades Used: Over the course of 3 years: 4K, K, 1st/3rd, 4th, 5th
The first year we did CC, I was a tutor and we
were part of a wonderful community. We all loved it and it was truly a blessing
to our homeschool. However, had I not been a tutor, there is no way I could
have afforded the tuition. As a tutor, I received “training” on how to teach
according to the classical model. This training was not what I expected and I
left the three day meeting feeling less confident than before. The first two
days were spent explaining what we could and couldn’t do. For instance, we were
absolutely not allowed to deviate from the 30 “crisp” minutes scheduled for
each subject. This didn’t seem like a big deal, except that many weeks the
assigned science project literally took 10 minutes to complete, while we were
left rushing through art projects in order to fulfill the requirement. The last
day of training, they finally gave instruction in what the tutors actually do.
This was done by breaking us into groups and having us present parts of the
memory work. It was very helpful to learn from some of the former tutors, but
the majority of the tutors were in their first year, so we had no clue what we
were supposed to do. Had it not been for my fellow tutors at my campus, I would
not have understood my job requirements at all.
Also in the training, we were constantly
reminded that we are to teach the parents, not the students, and that our job
is to show the parents how to teach according to the classical model. I found
this condescending and in total opposition to my belief that the parent is the
best teacher for their child-the reason why many choose to homeschool. When I
asked why CC feels this way, I was told that “this is Leigh’s program and you
cannot change anything about it”. The trainer drew a pyramid on the board and
wrote: Jesus, Leigh, Directors, Tutors, Parents, Children. She told us that
this is the order of command with CC and we were to respect it. I’m sorry, but
something about seeing Leigh Bortins listed right under Jesus Christ made me
nauseous. Also, I think the order should have listed the parents under Jesus
and so forth.
The second year we did CC, we had moved to a
new area that did not have a campus, so I used the curriculum and did everything
myself at home. We had a great year, learned SO MUCH more than the previous
year, and I didn’t have to pay almost $500 per child. The drawbacks were that
my kids loved getting together with friends each week, so they really missed
having a campus and that I felt I had to organize our science and history to
match up with CC. This was impossible because CC is more of an outline of main
topics instead of a complete curriculum. One week on the Civil War did not give
me enough time to cover what I felt my oldest child needed to learn that year.
This year, we joined a classical co-op which
is similar to CC, but the only cost is for supplies. The tutors are parent
volunteers. I have found this to be the best of both worlds.
I really think that CC is a great program, but
I strongly disagree with some of their philosophies and I think the cost is
impossible for many families to afford.
- See more at:
http://www.thehomeschoolmom.com/homeschool-curriculum-reviews/classical-conversations/#sthash.lYKEebVm.dpuf
I put this one first because it is the most disturbing to
me. Especially the triangle / pyramid she
describes in the following manner:
Jesus
Leigh
Directors
Tutors
Parents
Children
Further links:
After my Conversation # 1, (@ the very
beginning of my research) the posts that were somewhat insinuating that I was
ignorant because I had not been to an official ‘information meeting’ or an
‘open house’ came this private conversation from Tiny (her name was changed as
she did not want to be recognized and for good reason!)
Omgoodness! Now I'm scared to pitch my two cents in after
reading that last woman's comments, haha. Just fyi, I think you were very
diplomatic in your approach to the topic
·
5:18pm
OK; that makes me feel good. I've gotten several good emails and
messages privately. BUT to be honest, I'm not getting much public support. I
actually said that I'm not going to post any more on that link. UUUGGG.. Don't
b sorry! I understand not wanting to get into all this.
5:20pm
I think its because people who do support you don't know enough
about CC to get into a debate. At least that's my thought. Yikes!
You ok?
·
5:23pm
YES, Thank you for asking..... This is frustrating! AND you are
right. There is not enough education about it to know pros AND cons..... When
you go to the meeting it is similar to a sales pitch of sorts. Classical
Conversaitons is like a Multi-level Marketing - therefore the more people, the
more $$ they make all the way up the ladder. That is OK for purses or makeup,
but to take moms who may be insecure and not financially able, and make them feel
as though this program will solve their needs..... I'm torn over it.
5:25pm
Ah, you described EXACTLY how I feel!!!!! I feel as if the
education I'm giving my kids is suddenly sub-par. I cried all day yesterday and
normally I'm uber confident with how my kids are progressing. Talk about
pressure!
·
5:30pm
·
OH, you are doing great!
I know. AND our goal is not to have the best SAT or ACT scores but for the LORD
to say "Well done thou good and faithful servant..."
·
5:31pm
EXACTLY! The things I want my kids to learn the most have
nothing to do with Latin or algebra
·
5:35pm
WOULD you care if I anonymously cut and paste your comments here
onto a follow up blog.... I won’t use your name, where you are from etc.... I
will post exactly as it is written here! If not, that is ok.
5:37pm
Tiny Toxter
Sure! Just as long as it’s anonymous...haha!!!!
5:37pm
Absolutely!
Tiny Toxter
You can also state that I don't think
schooling your children requires a lot of $ for curriculum (been there, done
that...hated it) and it doesn't have to be so stringent. At least a laidback
approach works better for our family anyways
I’ve heard the following statements / stories
from private messages or one-on-one conversations:
“I feel like CC is being shoved
down our throats!”
“I can do CC at home if I choose.”
“You can give a classical
education at home.”
“On several occasions, I’ve been
accosted at (local support group) events to try to get me to join CC; now I avoid going to
these events if [CC members] are there.”
“I told her I couldn’t afford it,
and she then proceeded to tell me why the benefits would outweigh the cost; I
knew there had to be a kickback of some sort.”
“Someone tried to recruit me at a
local support group event after hearing me and another mom talking about our
curriculum choices. This mom said she
had found the perfect curriculum. When I
told her I couldn’t afford that and my hubby wasn’t ‘on board’ she proceeded to
tell me all the reasons the money would be worth it. That is when I knew it had to be similar to
MLM. It is marketing of some sort. The other mom signed up for the idea of CC
almost immediately. I watched her be
recruited.”
“I’m not sure of what we did this
school year; I hope this is enough (she had done an extensive amount of work
and had created a very nice portfolio and a nice home education for her child
all by herself)….. I’m joining CC next
year to help us stay on track....”
CC uses the same techniques that
other companies do to market to homeschool moms. Here is where I don’t like these
methods. They CAN (and some tutors / directors intentionally do) cast doubt into a successful
mom’s mind that her children are missing out on an opportunity, some sort of
classical secretive learning, the thought of ‘I’m not doing enough’ or ‘I don’t
know what I’m doing’. Or make a mom feel
that “My kids don’t have that much memorized! I must be doing something wrong.” or “I’m inadequate to homeschool my child; I only have a high school diploma.” Why would anyone do this to another mom? Why would marketing this way be acceptable?
The CC info meeting only spoke of the classical
conversations ‘home-centered’ method; it never mentioned any other type of
homeschool group, support, or style of teaching. But I can understand that…. That is what they do, and they would not want
to persuade you to use Charlotte Mason. At other local support group events, phone numbers were taken of potential homeschoolers to invite these people to CC info meetings? This is a little pushy - trying to press your way of schooling onto someone in the researching phase!
Interestingly enough, My Father’s
World (MFW) is starting up groups all over the country with the same weekly
idea. The difference? There is no fee,
no registration, no tuition, etc. My
Father’s World has a book for sale that costs $24; the book gives ideas for a
weekly get-together and activities or enrichment lessons. Purchase that book and find like-minded
families to join you (that are on the same sequence of MFW as you). They offer a voluntary registry of groups but
have no authority over them and require no payments.
Another point to make: Tuition for a Challenge A, B, I, II, III,
& IV is $1110 - $1175 + Registration fee of $120 + Lab fee of $50 + a
facility fee. That equals $1345 not including
books. This price is about a third to ½
of a local Christian school tuition (in WV) for the entire year – 5 days a week
for 36 weeks – and with minimal parental responsibility to provide
teaching. I know some moms are choosing this route. I don't blame them - it is their choice....
Here is a story that I heard
about CC influencing a family in the formation of cliques. There was a mom who had homeschooled on her
own for several years. She joined a
local CC when it came to her town. The
family had several children who participated.
After a few years of participating in CC, she and her husband felt that
the children were becoming cliquish with one another and not having good family
unity. For example, the children would
say, “Get out of my room; I’m not playing with you.” After some prayer and reflection the parents
decided it may be the CC program they had joined where children are separated
by ages for hours at a time for tutoring.
This mom told the director that she would not be back and the reasons
for her leaving. The director looked at
her and said to the affect “You can’t do it on your own”. The mom said something like, I homeschooled
before CC came, and I will be successful after it has gone. Good for her!
Could CC cause us to form
cliques? At home among siblings? At our support group activities? Among established support groups? At field trips? Pool days?
Picnics? What about within CC itself?
There are cliques everywhere you go, but for the children’s sake, I hope we
don’t clique off into CC and non-CC students.
I hope all moms (and their children) receive fair treatment at parks and
local support group events even if they are not in a CC group.
One week to learn a topic on a
three year cycle is another issue I have. For example, when my children want to
learn a topic, I may stay on the subject for more than a week or two. I may stay on the topic a month or a whole
school year (like slavery – we went to the library, visited Montecello, saw the
slave quarters, heard stories from the Montecello volunteers about Sally
Hemmings, read books when we returned home, watched videos on slavery, studied
the underground railroad and Harriet Tubman (also watched a movie about
her). We also did internet activities,
Bob Jones curriculum activities, Netflix movies on slave traders, like John
Newton (Amazing Grace, the movie), and much more. This is interest-based learning and is very
exciting to my children. I heard of a
child who was fascinated with Egypt, so the mother stayed on Egypt for several
months. The cycle of 3 years does not
make sense to me when you only get a week on a particular subject. If you coordinated your science to CC you
would get one topic / week? One factual
sentence per week? Why go over the same
composers or artists every three years?
How about study someone off the list for more than one week?
Science experiments and art
projects are another question. The
experiments can, for the most part, be done at home. There is no science lecture in elementary or
high school. The parent is completely responsible
for the lecture portion of the science while CC does a lab/week. Perhaps the community gets excited to do an
experiment and art projects with friends each week.
However, it would not be for me – I’m non-artistic! I would be backward and shy and not want
anyone to see my project. I would rather
die than have a class see my drawing.
However, for kids this is not an issue; children like to show off their
work. That is why I often feel showing
off the kids work is more like a parlor show.
I’m going to post a presentation every now and then, but it would mostly
be for my out-of-town family to view it in other states or friends considering the alternatives to public school.
I don’t do it on a forum page or a support group page for strangers to
see and think: “WOW that program is what I need
to do -- I need to homeschool like her family!" I'm not bragging or showing a parlor trick here....
In concluding this excruciatingly long post, I
want to say that there are great ideas with Classical Conversations. I am also highly impressed with the father’s
involvements with CC (I see on several videos that dads are often tutors or encouraging of CC). IMHO CC is a tool -a very popular tool (that is why I'm taking a large amount of flack for these posts). Some are passionate about it! Others are making the rest of us feel disenchanted
or repulsed when we see posts or invitations to events. When we see certain people who we know are going to want to market to us by telling us we aren't doing enough.... Why would anyone need to have all these info
meetings/open houses? I don’t hold info meetings for
A Beka. (I do not utilize an A Beka program but use this for an example publisher.)
Hypothetically, if I worked for A Beka,
and I hosted an info meeting sharing homeschooling as using exclusively A Beka
products, homeschoolers of any season in their jouney would call me out on it! I would be advertising, making my own gain,
using this tool as a profit for myself.
If you were at my meeting, would you not like to say to the audience,
“There are other options!!!!” Of course
you would! THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS. People successfully homeschool with various
curricula…. with ACE, with Sonlight, with Alpha Omega, or with public school
materials…..
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